The Falcon   |   Volume 83, Issue 53

Published 5/29/13   |   Log In

Haven no longer to meet on campus

Seniors and Haven co-leaders, Caleb Richmond, Becky Jennings, Joy Bethune and Aaron Roberts converse about the outcome of Haven after a Jan. 25 meeting with Jeff Jordan, associate vice president of academic affairs.

Seniors and Haven co-leaders, Caleb Richmond, Becky Jennings, Joy Bethune and Aaron Roberts converse about the outcome of Haven after a Jan. 25 meeting with Jeff Jordan, associate vice president of academic affairs.
Photo credit: EMILY STOCK/The Falcon.

University will not discuss club status, mission statement for LGBTQ group

By MELISSA STEFFAN, Editor-in-Chief

Published: February 2, 2011


To read the complete version of Haven's revised Statement of Purpose, click here.

“Haven no longer exists.”

That is how Haven leaders are interpreting the results of a Jan. 25 meeting with Jeff Jordan, associate vice president for academic affairs.

At that meeting, Jordan informed Haven leaders that they will no longer be granted the right to reserve rooms on campus for group meetings. In addition, Jordan told the student leaders he will no longer discuss the possibility of official club status for Haven, a group dedicated to discussing sexuality, including gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and queer issues.

Haven has never been an officially recognized student club or organization, Jordan said. As a result, he said, Haven’s current state is not significantly different from the way it has always been.

“I don’t know that a lot has changed, in one sense, other than access in my working with (Haven) and the expectations that have been set forth,” he said.

Yet, Haven leaders said they feel as though Haven is in the process of being “defined out of existence.”

“We were not a club before that meeting and we’re not now, but we still exist,” said senior and Haven co-leader Caleb Richmond.

On Jan. 20, a similar meeting occurred between Professor of Sociology Kevin Neuhouser, Haven’s faculty adviser, and Jordan and Les Steele, vice president for academic affairs.

“What I was told is that, in terms of a formal group, Haven did not exist,” Neuhouser said. “The university did not recognize Haven as a group and, since they weren’t a group, they couldn’t have the rights and privileges that recognized groups have.”

Technical definitions have plagued Haven since it formed four years ago as a result of the Equality Ride movement that came to campus. Since that time, Haven leaders have sought official Associated Students of Seattle Pacific club status, and have always been required to work with Jordan regarding on-campus Haven events, Jordan said.

Previously, Jordan provisionally authorized Haven leaders to reserve space, such as classrooms, through Conference Services. Haven leaders no longer have that right, Jordan said.

They are still allowed to meet informally and unofficially in public spaces, such as Weter Lounge. Yet, senior Haven co-leader Becky Jennings said the personal nature of Haven discussions necessitates privacy.

“Since our main goal is to be a safe place for discussion on campus, when we don’t have a safe place that is our own, it compromises our ability to be a safe space,” Jennings said.

In October 2010, Haven was approved to use a room in Demaray Hall as a private meeting space for the month, said senior sociology major Aaron Roberts, Haven co-leader. In return, Haven agreed to keep the university informed of the group’s activities and provide a revised Statement of Purpose.

Following Haven’s Pastor Panel event on Nov. 7, 2010, though, the situation changed.

“There was concern about the makeup of the panel,” said Kevin Neuhouser, professor of sociology and Haven’s faculty adviser. “Haven had worked very hard to try to have a broad range of pastors. For a variety of reasons, the only ones who were willing to come and be on this panel were the ones who were more affirming.”

The Pastor Panel was the last time Haven was able to reserve university space for a group meeting or event.

However, the Pastor Panel was not the sole factor behind this decision. At that time, the group still had not submitted a revised Statement of Purpose, Jordan said.

“We were operating without an idea of (Haven’s) purpose -- at least the administration didn’t have (one),” Jordan said. “So there was a good faith effort that I felt like I was doing on behalf of the university and administration to say, ‘We will give you space, but we also need this to be worked on.’”

Haven began to revise its mission statement later that month, Roberts said. The group met and decided to scratch the old document and begin anew, focusing on Haven’s core values, he said.

Haven’s previous mission statement contained excerpts from SPU’s Statement on Human Sexuality. Leaders had hoped incorporating university views would enable the mission statement’s approval, Roberts said.

Yet, previous mission statements that used such language were never approved, Jordan said.

This time, Jordan said, he asked leaders to address the Statement of Purpose not just in terms of what they wanted to be as a group, but to connect their statement to the university’s position on sexuality.

“Where I was trying to head was, ‘I understand that you can use bits and pieces, but really, can you agree to the university’s statement, and where do you have issues?’” Jordan said. “That’s the point we hadn’t gotten to up to this point.”

In the new Statement of Purpose, Haven removed all direct quotes from the Statement of Human Sexuality. Still, the goals and the mission of Haven to promote open discussion stayed the same, Jennings said.

However, the group’s statement stops short of taking any specific position on the Statement of Human Sexuality.

According to its Statement of Purpose, “Haven recognizes that SPU has a Statement on Human Sexuality that defines the university’s position. Haven will ensure that the content of this statement is clearly presented in our activities. Because Haven exists to promote safe and respectful conversations, however, Haven will ensure that all views, even those in disagreement with SPU’s Statement, are presented fairly and treated impartially.”

Haven submitted its new mission statement in January, but never discussed the document with Jordan, said senior sociology major Joy Bethune, Haven co-leader.

“The discussion about it is over,” she said. “We don’t know why the administration didn’t even address the new mission statement.”

The university’s Jan. 25 decision to stop working with Haven is a setback for the group, which has set a long-term goal of making SPU a safe community for all students, Neuhouser said. Being a club and providing a particular space was one step toward that bigger goal.

“We don’t seem to be making progress toward a place where our students can be safe,” he said. “I would love the day when Haven is no longer necessary because the whole campus was safe for all our students.”

Until that time, Haven will not disappear, Roberts said.

“They can define us out of existence all they want, but Haven will continue to meet on campus because there’s a need for Haven on campus,” Roberts said.


Comments

roberm1 said:
This makes me sad for SPU. But I am happy to hear that Haven is not giving up their place on campus. You belong there, you are needed there. Keep it up, Haven, and stand strong! Someday SPU will come around and realize that there is a need for a group like yours on campus. It may take a while, but they will come around.
katiewho said:
I really want to be proud to go to this school, but issues like this make it hard. Kudos to Haven for trying so hard to make SPU a more welcoming environment for everyone.
senior11 said:
To be perfectly honest, I'm glad this finally happened. I'm not saying that people should not talk about these issues, because they are very real in today's society-I just don't think they need club status to do it. Also, being a club allows them access to funds provides by both the University and the student body...I personally do not want my money helping to support this. I am more proud of SPU for not allow this that for allowing it. Haven-Keep meeting and talking, be happy for those opportunities.
katiewho said:
The issue here isn't just about being able to discuss LGBTQ issues, nor is about funding; it's about the removal of a "safe place" on campus. SPU needs to realize that there are gay students on campus as well as straight students who care deeply about LGBTQ issues. SPU can come off as a bit condemnatory towards anyone who doesn't subscribe fully to their beliefs, and the removal of Haven shows a lack of willingness to change.
senior11 said:
Again, no issue with students discussing, but I totally side with the school on this one. Why should SPU have to change? People can keep discussing what they want on campus. SPU is standing with the beliefs and rules of its leadership. The Bible tells us to obey the leadership God has put before us, so I believe that we need to.
spualum said:
I'm glad that in the 50s and 60s, those who believed equal rights were deserved for all, no matter the color of their skin, didn't "obey the leadership God has put before us" and stood up against those in power who believed otherwise. SPU's leadership is setting an archaic example with this issue.
jmylander said:
I am proud of SPU for its motto: Engage the Culture, Change the World. Unfortunately, this strikes me as the definition of disengagement. Regardless of views on sexuality, I think everyone can agree that those who identify themselves as LGBTQ find it extremely difficult to dialogue with the Church. As a Christian institution, SPU should take responsibility for some of this marginalization by encouraging groups like Haven rather than setting up roadblocks. This cannot come through imposing the University's views on students; it must come by letting them find their own views within a safe and supportive Christian context. Only through discussion, prayer, and fellowship will issues be resolved and relationships healed.
EmbarrasedAlumni said:
Haven should have equal access to funds, just like any other club that meets on that campus. Senior11 might not want his/her money to help to support this, but I am an alumni that paid in FULL to be at that place for four years. Haven can use all the money that I shoved into that institution.

This group wants to meet to DISCUSS sexuality. A part of our selves that is inwardly and outwardly displayed on a daily basis. If we lock up this conversation, we prevent open communication and progress. If you don't want/need to talk about your sexuality, then don't attend the meetings.

I am obviously aware that not eveyone in haven identifies themselves as LGBTQ. I just wish that the students who are so opposed to this club knew how many LGBTQ students and faculty exist at that school. Believe me, the number is HUGE! This group is important for SPU. Don't let them bring in the equality riders and open this conversation, and then when students respond allow them to tear it away. They opened the can of worms. Keep it open!!! My support and encouragement goes out to all members of Haven. As an SPU alumni, I hope you can make that place less of an embarrasement to the general public. Because when people hear about these kinds of instances, they feel ashamed and sad for the members of the SPU community.
EmbarrasedAlumni said:
SPU is going to remain archaic. It will be an institution that the culture of Seattle passes by without paying notice. What is so obvious is that Haven is not recognized as a club and not able to reserve space because SPU is committed more to its image than "engaging the culture." What culture is SPU engaging? Obviously not even its own. We had to hear that phrase over and over again, but when you reflect on it you realize it has no meaning whatsoever. As long as these sorts of decisions are driven by school politics and money (investors), it is certain that SPU will remain and static entity in a progressive world.
Alum03 said:
I love SPU, but this is wrong. Haven's mission statement has nothing threatening or contrary to SPU's overall mission statement. I'm pretty sure there was nothing like Haven on campus when I was a student, and I wish there had been. The school administration must be blind to what is going on in the world generally and in the ecumenical church: the moral issues about homosexuality are far from resolved. Shutting out safe places for students to have serious conversations about these issues with a faculty advisor as discerning, wise and kind as Kevin Neuhouser, can only cause damage to students struggling with these concerns. I'm fine with SPU being inexplicable to the outside world for all the right reasons—say that the community there would exemplify extraordinary forgiveness, complete truthfulness, abounding joy, radical service, peacemaking, seeking justice at personal cost, etc. But please, don't embarrass me by not being willing to allow safe conversations about something that matters so much. Haven, I hope you persevere. And SPU phonathon, stop asking me for money until the administration will allow Haven official status and a safe space to meet on campus like every other official student group.
meganw said:
I'm with Embarrased Alumni on this one. I graduated from SPU in 2008, and often find myself wondering what the hell the administration thinks they are doing. Haven formed while I was a student at SPU, and was denied club status over and over again. It's one thing if that dialogue had remained open, but as this article reads, Mr. Jordan is clearly no longer to even discussing the option of Haven becoming a club.
This makes me so, so sad for the students of SPU, and very proud of those who have kept Haven going despite all the trouble. I hope that the students of Haven know that they have support from the community at large, support from alumni, and support from a large number of faculty.
The irony is that in the midst of all this rigid bigotry, Haven is the group growing people of competence and character, Haven IS a grace-filled community, Haven IS engaging the culture (by the way, is there only one culture? c'mon, SPU). Haven is living up to so many of SPU's principles, but is continually treated as some sort of blight on the school.
It is important for the safety of ALL students at SPU that there be a safe place for students to discuss issues of sexuality and gender. Being Christian does not somehow exempt someone from the possibility of being gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgender, or queer. Nor does it mean students shouldn't have a safe place to at least talk about these things at a school they pay an arm and a leg to attend. I would be happy to know that my tuition dollars went to making sure students had a place like Haven.
I've always thought the use of the phrase "engaging the culture" was sort of, well, silly, at SPU, because it is largely ignored by the rest of the city until they make a nightmare move like this and then The Stranger acknowledges it's existence. The motto seems especially ridiculous given that Seattle is a largely progressive city, with a well-established and supportive GLBTQ community, but a school that purports to "engage the culture" is doing everything it can to eliminate a group devoted to discussion of these issues. You can't do much more to alienate yourself from the city that houses you.
At any rate, I hope and pray that things improve for Haven. I'm rooting for them. And if anyone from Haven reads this:
if you want or need help with anything, please get in touch. meganwurster [at] gmail [dot] com
meganw said:
I also appreciate what Alum03 said: stop calling me and asking me for money until you provide a welcoming community for ALL your students.
IG said:
I'm an alumni who was out during my undergraduate studies. I just want to voice my support of Haven and all students and faculty in support of open discussion. Plenty of my friends disagreed with my lifestyle but were decent enough people and disciplined enough Christians to treat me with respect. It's an unfortunate that we Christians seem to have so much trouble disagreeing without being bigoted and engaging the culture without metaphorically stoning it.
sccottt said:
Ugh. I'm embarrassed to have this school on my resume.
CurrentStudent said:
I am heartbroken for Haven and their constant rejection by SPU. Haven provides a welcoming, healthy, loving environment, not just for students who identify themselves as LGBT, but for anyone who wants to openly discuss issues regarding sexuality. This club is in no way harmful to anyone, and SPU would greatly benefit from its status as an official club. The continued saga of SPU's rejection of Haven is on par with the bigotry expressed towards blacks, Jews, and the disabled (to name a few) that has marred our country since its inception. To me, the current mission statement of SPU is laughable. My applause to Haven leaders for continuing to meet and stay strong in the face of this prejudice.
Wesley Chase said:
I heard something cool today! "REFLECT NOT REACT"-- I want everyone to watch this video-- I find it lovely.

(copy and past this)

http://thedailywh.at/post/3067145369/this-is-important-you-should-watch-it-of-the-day








-This is something I want everyone to think about--use it in your papers, use it in your prayers-- I went to SPU as well. It was a GREAT school--- I Enjoyed the education, people I encountered, and the contradictions I experienced. I think it's time for God to be the judge and not us. I am a gay dude that experienced rejection from, peers, family, and some of my community at SPU--however, let me tell you my friends- that are reading, maybe gay, or not, or just thoughtful--for every person i encountered that disagreed or agreed-- I made the best friends of my life there! I CHALLENGE ALL OF YOU to learn from each other and talk about it. Let's not hate --isn't that a duh?

p.s. I bet someone sitting next to you in class, at Gwinn, or in the library is prolly gay, and you don't know it. Let them know that they are loved-- and want to know...it'll make you a better person.

My best,
W. Chase
Hillsw@spu.edu


Rickajingo said:
I am currently a freshman at SPU with several friends back home who are interested in studying here. Among them is a friend who applied here early action, is spiritually interested and, I think, would thrive in the community at SPU. It is through their eyes that I want to frame this issue.
My friend has a heart for justice, is relational, celebrates the diversity with which God created humanity, they seek after truth, and they think that they’ve seen a glimmer of that truth in SPU. In the way that students seek after God and His kingdom both through their spirituality and their education, and in the way that their search brings about grace-filled community amongst people of seemingly conflicting demographics my friend can see that people sincerely encounter God at SPU, and that is what draws them here. Haven reflects that kind of community. To that end, then, I would have to say to senior11 that the problem is not that SPU has to abandon its roots, but rather that it has to reacquaint itself with those roots. Whatever you may believe about gender, sexuality, marriage or God’s character, it’s abundantly clear in scripture that Jesus never defined any qualifying characteristics specific to those He loved: He loved everyone. Similarly, He never recoiled from any question asked by those who earnestly sought after the Lord. And these two things are at the heart of Haven: earnestly seeking Gods truth (as He reveals it in issues of marriage, sexuality and gender), and developing grace-filled community within the broader SPU community. In a broader sense, those are the same things that draw my friend from high school to to SPU: seeking Gods truth and expanding His kingdom. My prayer is that they will not be what drives them away from this community.
My prayers go out to the members of Haven, and my thanks. Thank you for helping make SPU an environment that can attract people such as my friend from back home, and know this: there are legions of students and faculty at SPU who love you and will fight with you and for you. Together we’ll continue to fight for the grace-filled community that distinguishes SPU!
Friesj1 said:
Homosexual students and students that want to discuss sexuality are still free to meet on campus anywhere they want. How is reserving a room on campus (it's not like it's a secret or protected location in the least) a SAFE place, but sitting at a table in Gwinn, Weter, or the library isn't safe?

SPU is a safe campus. The SLIM minority would ever do anything unsafe physically or verbally to anyone, much less someone who wants to talk about sexuality. People talk about sexuality all over the school. It's obvious there are students who feel comfortable enough to live "out" as homosexuals.

It wasn't given official club status because donors and people who are paying to attend don't see the point in funding a group that can't clarify its purpose or line up with the schools policies (p.s. like EVERY OTHER CLUB is obligated to).

The bigger issue is that homosexuals, as an AGENDA (not individuals per say), want community acceptance and endorsement of the lifestyle. No Christian should endorse something the Bible clearly outlines as sin. We should love people, we should stand up against injustice and love our neighbor, we should look at our own sin and not others, but in these formalized settings, don't expect an institution to ignore fundamental teaching in the Bible so a group of students can "officially" meet and have status.

Obviously it's more about "message" and drama than it is students getting together to discuss and support each other. Hence the hissy fits.
murmur000 said:
friesj1:

i think it's a mistake to be so dismissive. spu is also a university whose mission includes being an intellectual community—a goal which presupposes the ability to openly discuss and explore controversial issues such as homosexuality. unfortunately, on this particular issue, spu doesn't live up to its own aspirations

i think one of the reasons people are so upset about the administration's decisions is we sense an intellectual dissonance between its mission and its rules. the administration is attempting to hide behind the rules by disqualifying haven on technicalities. but even if we were to concede that their technical interpretation is sound, the decision to stringently enforce it is unbecoming of an institution that aspires to be a premier christian university that believes there is no conflict between the pursuit of christ and the pursuit of knowledge.

to refuse an invitation to engage an idea is a betrayal of one of spu's core commitments and the rules ought to accommodate its core commitments, not the other way around. we ought to be able to say that we are open to the free discussion of all ideas, that we are unafraid of them—even the ones we think are wrong.

we should not fear students coming to different conclusions than our own. instead, we should each put fourth our case to the best of our ability and confidently believe that the truth will win out in the end.

that is the university i believe spu has the potential to be.
idealist said:
Senior11...that is a tragically shallow, poorly thought statement.

"The Bible tells us to obey the leadership God has put before us, so I believe that we need to."

Taken straight from your 3rd grade Sunday School class, no doubt. So next time your "leaders" ask you to marginalize historically persecuted groups and deny fundamental rights to human beings you interact with every day, by all means. Obey. Roll over like a dog. I mean, the bible definitely doesn't offer any examples of people groups or individuals defying leadership that is misled or oppressive. Definitely not the Israelites.

I also think it's tragic that someone would decide that their small fee was worthy of every other group on campus, but evidently this one, which is more relevant and probably has a clearer mission and statement of purpose than ANY club on campus, is the only one that doesn't deserve a cut.

Sigh. It is an embarrassing situation indeed.

Friesj1 said:
murmur000,
There is no lack of engaging of ideas by anyone on SPU's campus because a group of students isn't given club status and school funding. Sorry.
The mission of SPU should be first and formost a following of Christ and His teaching. The school can love everyone and allow everyone a VOICE (like "Haven" students obviously have given all the ruckus) without giving "official" status to a group that cannot define it's purpose in light of the mission statement of the school they've all chosen to associate with.
Friesj1 said:
idealist,

Exaggerate much?
"So next time your "leaders" ask you to marginalize historically persecuted groups and deny fundamental rights to human beings you interact with every day, by all means."

Clarify for me how a group of students in a private institution have a "fundamental right" to use that private institution's space to meet (without paying) and instead demand status and payment themselves?

I think you should rethink "fundemental rights". Stop trying to tie the homosexual movement to the civil rights movement. When a student that claims to be homosexual is drinking from a separate water fountain or forced into a designated corner of Gwinn, get back to me.
Ryan said:
As a graduate of 2003, Haven was not active on campus when I was a student. However, I solidly support the administration's decision and I'm certain many other alumni would as well.

The root issue here is SPU's statement of faith which is abundantly clear as regards the university's stance on homosexuality. Haven was unable or unwilling to affirm its conformance to SPU's statement of faith and therefore forfeited its "right" to formal recognition by the administration. Anyone opposed to the university's stance on Haven is ultimately opposed to SPU's statement of faith, which is in turn formulated based on a common and mainstream Christian interpretation of Holy scripture. You aren't required to agree with it, but by attending the university you are recognizing and acknowledging it's authority over formal university matters. While Haven has clearly set themselves up as a victim, it was their leadership's decision not to conform to the statement of faith and as such they should not be surprised by the response.

The entire point of SPU's engagement with culture is to do so from a solid Biblical standing; otherwise engaging the culture boils down to nothing more than moral relativism. SPU's statement of faith is in place to prevent exactly that and to ensure that SPU can engage the culture without losing its scriptural footing.

Having spent time at another, far more conservative Christian university I can assure you that SPU is an incredibly open and friendly environment towards those who dissent from the mainstream University views. The other commenter's claims of bigotry on the part of SPU towards Haven are unfounded, trite, and downright offensive.

I certainly won't argue against the need to discuss current and personal sexual issues, including homosexuality, in a safe environment. However, if a formal club is desired than it needs to conform to the Biblical standards the University stands on. I.e, recognizing that homosexuality is a sin, albeit one that many struggle with and one that certainly shouldn't be singled out over any of the multitude of other sexual sins that college age Christian youth deal with on a regular basis.
Alum03 said:
Ryan,

I agree with you that SPU maintains a much more dialogue friendly (and yet orthodox) atmosphere than other similar Christian universities, but that is part of what makes me so disappointed with this recent evidence of inhospitable dogmatism. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion about the legitimacy of this move. I can't find anything in SPU's Statement of Faith about the university's stance on homosexuality. I looked here: http://www.spu.edu/about-spu/statement-of-faith.aspx and here: http://www.spu.edu/about-spu/mission-and-signatures.aspx. SPU does have a Statement on Human Sexuality, here: http://www.spu.edu/info/StatementonHumanSexuality.html. Four observations on it:
1) It was drafted in 2005; quite recent in the life of the university. If this is such an important issue, why didn’t the university have a statement on it before?
2) It is completely buried on the website; I couldn’t find a link to it anywhere. I had use the search function. Again, if this is so important, why?
3) The actual phrasing makes *no condemnation* of LGBTQ sexual relations. It only affirms man-woman sexuality. This phrasing leaves the discussion open as to what place LGBTQ sexuality has in Christian life. The paucity and ambiguity of biblical texts that deal with human sexuality suggest to me that Scripture leaves the discussion open as well. Why won’t SPU’s current administration?
4) It maintains a tone of willingness to dialogue with fellow Christians via careful reading of Scripture.

Comparing these statements with Haven’s Statement of Purpose I can’t find anything that would legitimately bar them from official status.

The phrasing on biblical foundations in the Statement of Faith does not entail a particular stance on human sexuality. In the ecumenical church there is enough disagreement about how to interpret the Bible on this issue that, it seems, SPU's commitment to ecumenism and careful biblical interpretation would make the university more hospitable to open dialogue about important issues that the church and wider culture are facing today. In light of these commitments (especially in the Mission Statement), this attempt to shut down conversation makes no sense to me. Until there is more unity within the ecumenical church on this issue, it seems to me that SPU would be most faithful to its own tradition and goals by keeping this dialogue open. Perhaps even more importantly, LGBTQ students at SPU need a safe place to discern the complicated issues they will face from the moment they recognize their sexuality onward if they have been raised as Christians and/or want to remain Christians. Haven has recognized this need and attempted to address it. If SPU doesn’t like the way Haven has gone about it, they ABSOLUTELY MUST provide genuine and safe alternative. That is essential in an institution that ostensibly cares not simply about education, but about formation as Christians.
ask2011 said:
There is a point in accepting and loving people regardless, however SPU is a Christian school, how do explain Romans 1:26 and 27 “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.”
America is a free country don’t you think we talk about our sexuality enough with it having club status?
SPUdenttt said:
This has been incredibly upsetting to hear about.. This just saddens me. I was raised in a Christian household that condemned gays and lesbians. I do not identify with that Christian faith, but rather identify with secular humanism and am accepting of gays and their personal beliefs. This is upsetting beyond words. But let's do something about it.

http://www.change.org/petitions/tell-seattle-pacific-university-recognize-lgbt-group-on-campus

This is a link to an online petition that will argue for Haven to be given status as a legitimate club. Let's see if there's something we can do besides talk on forums here online.
SPUdenttt said:
Another thought came to mind; aren't part of SPU's beliefs to incorporate something called "radical reconciliation?" Why not try to incorporate this in this situation? I firmly believe that if students sign this petition, perhaps we can begin change that isn't just spoken of in these forums.
http://www.change.org/petitions/tell-seattle-pacific-university-recognize-lgbt-group-on-campus#comments
Azure said:
Like most other people, I was angered and embarrassed when I heard the news. I was not, however, surprised. The firm abolishing of the already unacknowledged Haven group is a blatant example of religious folks continuing to ignore LGBT issues, and thereby digging themselves in to an increasingly deep hole of stigma and blame.

The fact is, Jeff Jordan is dismissing Haven as a way to run away from his personal problems with the LGBT movement. In doing so, rather than engaging the culture, Dr. Jordan is leading the university on a path of reclusion and ignorance, both being predominant criticisms of the Christian community. And yes, if you haven't heard, there are people that criticize the Christian community. A lot of people.

Furthermore, the absence of Haven as a guiding light for students from any spectrum of sexual orientations will indubitably have negative ramifications. Closeted SPU students may have to continue to suffer in silence, and even worse, those not open to LGBT people will be given but another reason to discriminate against a group of already incredibly vulnerable people.

To be utterly frank, aside from being a very poor choice of action on the part of Dr. Jordan, the stigma falls on the entire SPU community. Now, rather than being known as a cutting-edge Christian university, we are going to be known as 'that school that got rid of their GSA'--or even more explicitly, 'that school that hates the gays', and as much as I pray that won't happen, it's definitely not an unrealistic prediction.
ask2011 said:
Does not having a Lesbian Gay bisexual Transgender club really equate to a Schools cultural ignorance? I believe SPU’s school motto is engaging the culture changing the world. Is not having haven embracing the culture and blending into the world? Don’t get me wrong some of my old friends were a part of haven. The question is was it right for SPU to give haven club status in the first place? Honestly I really have a hard time with that.
murmur000 said:
friesj1:

i'm not necessarily arguing that haven ought to be granted official club status or given the funding given to assp clubs. the specific case i'm making is that the administration ought not deny them the ability to reserve rooms.

it seems like a petty move to me because it costs the university so little and yet it means quite a bit more to the group. it suggests that the administration believes allowing these students to discuss the question of homosexuality and faith poses a significant danger to the university. perhaps they're correct. but even if they are, i don't think using the rules to suppress this particular group is the best response.

that's all i'm trying to get at. it's clear that the administration is taking haven very seriously, that they think this is a very serious issue. i'm simply arguing that their purely rules-based response is, in my opinion, well down the hierarchy of good responses insofar as it is inconsistent with the spirit and ethos of the university spu aspires to be.

at its best, i think spu is a university that believes that the quality of an idea ought to be decided on its merit and that good ones don't need the deck to be stacked in their favor to win out. as such, i think a better response would be for spu to graciously extend haven the ability to meet and reserve rooms despite the rules.

as christians, i think we ought to remember that it's often difficult to get our voices heard in the public square and in those occasions how deeply we long to be allowed our seat at the table so that we can simply have our say. we ought to be patient listeners and we ought to carefully consider what everyone has to say because this is what we ask as christians when we preach the gospel.

i think this is precisely what it means to engage the culture and change the world: that spu is a place where the intersection between faith and culture can be freely explored. that our ideas will be heard, that the christian gospel can be seen to be alive and well in the world we live in—but only if we also agree to listen. what we ask of the world around us, we must first be willing to do ourselves.
ask2011 said:
Then if Haven is not a school club why should they be allowed to reserve rooms? The question then remains what does the Bible clearly say about our sexuality? If SPU is a Christian school then they should hold students to Christian standards. Having a LGBT club at a Christian school for students seems contrary to those standards. I believe in listening and open discussion, however Haven in and of itself had no way of providing that. Discussion needs two sides. Now the LGBT club meeting with mark driscoll that would be awesome discussion.

PS Faith defines culture. Culture run parallel to peoples faith.
murmur000 said:
hi, ask2011.

well, like i said, i'm not really arguing about the rule. i understand that technically speaking, off-campus groups don't have the right to reserve rooms. however, this rule has been interpreted different ways in the recent past—sometimes leniently and sometimes more strictly. if i'm not mistaken, it's the rule that was invoked to keep mark driscoll off campus, for example. but sometimes unaffiliated groups like the discovery institute are allowed to use the university's resources.

the intent of the rule is to make sure that our finite number of rooms are correctly prioritized such that classes and other officially recognized events always have a place to meet. an interesting byproduct of the administration's uneven enforcement of the rule is that it gives the school a convenient way to keep groups they don't like off campus. so i guess my point is, while it's within the university's rights to enforce their rules in precisely this manner, it still feels unfair because it's not a rule that's uniformly enforced.

and even more broadly speaking, i think it speaks to the sort of university we aspire to be. personally, i'd rather we were a university that allowed haven as well as mark driscoll to meet on campus. those are two ideological camps that probably don't have a whole lot of overlap, but i think we would better serve our mission if we welcomed them both to have their say.

that's the point of universities, in my opinion: we don't hide from ideas, but rather we come back at them with better ideas. that's what's meant by engaging the culture, in my mind. we take it on by arguing better, not by refusing to argue at all. i don't think we'll ever change the world if we don't make sure our voices are heard. and how can we expect to be heard if we make it clear that we refuse to listen?
spume said:
according to ask2011's standards, we MUST uphold to all rules. If I see a woman with braided hair, I'm going to cut it off. How dare they believe that they can braid their hair around this school. What an abomination to the Bible.

I hope all of you people that are against Haven realize that you are spreading hate. I'm totally embarrassed at my fellow students who would be so quick to pass judgment on those without fully understanding the biological aspects on homosexuality. If you think that it's a choice, you're sadly mistaken. Do your research, EDUCATE yourself.

To all you LGBT and straight allies. I love you all, keep fighting the good fight.
ChUck said:
Wow, "Playing 'Gotcha' by Tossing Around Bible Verses You Really Don't Understand" must be a popular course at SPU. Who teaches it?
ChUck said:
Thanks to The Falcon for posting Haven’s revised Statement of Purpose. It made for interesting reading.

I don’t work for the administration, so I can’t give any official reason why Haven has been denied club status.

However, it’s obvious to me that some of the public activities of Haven and its members in recent months do not comport with the group’s own Statement of Purpose. Why should the University be expected to support a group that does not uphold its own charter?

Haven claims that events it sponsors “will promote learning about all aspects of human sexuality, as well as thoughtful and respectful discussion based on the wealth and breadth of knowledge available at a Christian university.” The one-sided Pastor Panel that Haven sponsored last November certainly doesn’t sound as if it matches this description.

A good debater should understand his or her opponent’s position well enough to present that position without bias—even if he or she profoundly disagrees with it. If Haven couldn’t get a panelist to present a “traditional” Biblical point of view on homosexuality, then the group should have had one of its own members present that point of view as a member of the Pastor Panel—or cancel the Panel altogether. Haven did neither, and as a result the Panel failed to meet Haven’s own stated goal: to “ensure that all views, even those in disagreement with SPU’s Statement, are presented fairly and treated impartially.” I am aware that Haven was turned down by conservative pastors whom it invited to be panelists. But Haven’s charter says it will ENSURE fair discussion. The old college try isn’t good enough.

Do I think Haven’s misstep on constituting the Pastor Panel is enough reason to disband the group?

No, but it’s one piece of evidence.

Following the Pastor Panel, Haven co-leader Aaron Roberts, angered at some comments made in reaction to the Panel, published a blistering letter in The Falcon, calling his opponents “bigoted, … misinformed, ignorant people out there who say really ridiculous things …, People who blindly accept the poor theology they were spoon fed, … dangerous … monsters … hateful … unable to even consider another viewpoint … closed-minded.” You can read the letter and its follow-up comments here: http://thefalcononline.com/article.php?id=7347

Does Roberts’ letter sound like it comes from someone who is sincerely interested in ensuring that all views are presented fairly and treated impartially?

No, it does not.

If you wondered why Haven had trouble getting a conservative pastor on the Panel, you may now cease wondering.

Roberts defended himself by asserting a “right to get angry.” Well, sure, as an individual he has that right, but it’s inconsistent for him to be spouting anger one minute and claiming the next minute that he’s all about promoting respectful discussion.

Is one angry outburst in The Falcon enough reason to for the university to withdraw support of Haven?

No, but it’s a second piece of evidence.

And the more evidence that piles up, the less Haven looks like a group that wants to promote “safe” discussion of “all views, even those in disagreement with SPU’s Statement.” Instead, they look more and more like a group of disgruntled kids with an ax to grind, a group in which it’s actually “safe” to express ONLY views that are in disagreement with the Statement on Human Sexuality.

If I’m wrong, prove it. Tell me about an encounter with a Haven member in which you expressed a “traditional” viewpoint on homosexuality and were treated with respect, rather than name-calling and dismissive scorn. Anyone?
idealist said:
Friesj1,

My apologies.

I didn't realize that by attending SPU students were giving up the right to explore the full human experience and existence, the right to resources despite being a minority, and the right to curiosity and inquiry.

And for the record, Haven members, LGBT students, and straight students all pay the same tuition and fees. The only difference is that "straight" means you have easier access to the resources those fees collect.

In that sense, yes, the challenges to participation and access to resources that LGBT students face are very similar to the same challenges of restricted access and participation that other historical groups - blacks, hispanics, women, etc - have (and continue) to face.

"Private" institution does not imply an institution without a conscious, nor one exempt from the social trends, pressures, and histories in the "public" world.
idealist said:
ChUck,

Speaking of fully understanding an opponent's position, I am curious about some of the assertions you presented above:

1. Did you attend the Pastor Panel? Were traditional viewpoints misrepresented or ridiculed at this panel?

2. Have you personally ever had a conversation with Aaron Roberts? Or perhaps read any of his other arguments, besides the angry Letter to the Editor?

3. Have you attended a Haven meeting or had any direct contact with its members in either an individual or group setting?

Just curious.

True understanding, as you suggest, requires more than distant criticism, but perhaps also sincere engagement.
ChUck said:
1. Traditional viewpoints expressed at, and in response to, the Pastor Panel were scorched to a crisp by Roberts in his letter. It doesn't matter if it happened during the Panel meeting or afterward: the letter is clearly Roberts' way of summing up his feelings about one side of the discussion engendered by an event that he set up. When presented with the opportunity to apologize, Roberts dug his heels in.

2. No, but after reading that letter, why would I want to?

3. I'm an alumnus who doesn't live particularly near the campus. Available evidence suggests that the group would not be particularly receptive to certain things I might have to say. I speak as one who has both engaged in and witnessed numerous passionate debates on the topic, which have touched on these issues, be they concerned with hermeneutics/exegesis, the nature of authority, church history, social justice, etc. -- in ways that go much deeper than the typical shallow presentations we're getting here in The Falcon. I have discussed the topic with people who truly aren't afraid to look at it from all sides. I know what a real open discussion looks like.

I'm not here to declare allegiance to one camp or the other, or to dismiss out of hand any argument that actually has a logical basis. For example, there are indeed substantial exegetical arguments that call some of the traditional views into question. It's just that I've never seen any of them presented in The Falcon by anyone associated with Haven or claiming to support Haven. Instead we get ridiculous Bible-hockey gambits like spume's, above. Or we get judgmental, semi-libelous comments like Azure's accusation that Jeff Jordan is trying to "run away from his personal problems."

You, idealist, seem a little smarter than that, even though you're trying to answer my questions with questions of your own. I have presented two pieces of evidence which suggest that Haven does not abide by its own mission statement. It appears from this evidence that Haven is more of an activist/advocacy group espousing a particular point of view than a forum open to all points of view. (Not that there's anything wrong with activism/advocacy per se, but it IS important to be who you say you are!)

Now it's your turn: from your direct experience with Haven, please demonstrate how I am wrong. Convince me that if I were to show up to a haven meeting and advocate for a traditional Biblical view on this topic, I wouldn't get my head bitten off by Roberts or anyone else.
idealist said:
ChUck,

As far as my direct experience, in my final two years at SPU (I graduated last June), I conducted several interviews and meetings with Haven leadership, Haven members, Haven’s advisor, student’s outside of Haven, and Dr. Jordan. I also attended several events either hosted by Haven or in other ways associated with the group including the National Day of Silence, the communion that followed a week later, a film showing dealing with various scriptures that address homosexuality, and several group meetings.

Based on the aforementioned experiences, I cannot draw the same conclusions about Haven that it seems you have. Haven has, most definitely, had a complicated history with some moments better than others. It is also a group that has faced public resistance, scorn, and support paralleled by none at SPU.

The discussions hosted by Haven have been thoughtful and incorporating, often challenging themselves to think outside of their own understandings and experiences. I can confidently say that if you were to attend a Haven meeting and advocate a traditional Biblical view that you would not only keep your head out of Robert’s mouth, but would find surprising and deep engagement from students and professors with perspectives across a spectrum (not simply traditional v. nontraditional).

I suppose I am unclear what “evidence” you are presenting, since you are not declaring allegiance. However, I do not think that Robert’s outburst is proof of anything, other than the frustration and strain members of Haven leadership are under. I think, as far as Roberts is concerned, empathy might be a more helpful tool than condemnation. To assert that you would not want to meet him after reading his letter is, I believe, shortsighted and just as reactionary and shallow as you accuse Roberts of being. Robert’s anger definitely failed to represent Haven as I have come to know the group, and that is unfortunate. Hopefully, it can also be a learning moment.

I still maintain that Haven has acted graciously, while remaining steadfast. Although I have sympathy for Dr. Jordan and his current predicament, I cannot say that my conversations with him ever produced a consistent argument against Haven’s existence. Rather, they jumped around, and down, and through, and between and what have you from advocacy questions, to mission statements, to Statements on Human Sexuality, into room reservations and back out again.

I find Haven’s position and assertions more defensible than the university’s.

Lastly, I do believe I am more than just a “little smarter.” If we are trying to move toward intelligent discussion and away from shallow presentations, lets leave out the patronizing tones, shall we?
ChUck said:
idealist, please don't claim that you're unclear about my evidence and then brag about how smart you are. The two pieces of evidence thus far presented are, as I clearly stated above: 1) the composition of the Pastor Panel; 2) Roberts' letter to the editor. Both of them violate Haven's mission statement. Does that need further explanation?

Pointing this out does not mean that I "condemn" Roberts. Kindly refrain from putting words into my mouth. "Condemn" seems to be a word that people toss around here without really knowing what it means. As to whether he's reactionary and shallow, those aren't my words either. But...

Here's a letter to the editor by one Mark Tegtmeier, published by The Falcon shortly after the Pastor Panel took place:

http://thefalcononline.com/article.php?id=7315

Mr. Tegtmeier puts forth a fairly conventional "traditional" Biblical view of homosexuality. Then he describes some of his personal experience, including pornography use and homosexual encounters, but concludes by saying he now believes he's found his true identity in God. It's not clear to me exactly what he means by that, other than that he's saying he currently is not engaging in homosexual practice.

Whether or not you support the way Mr. Tegtmeier is choosing to resolve his personal conflicts and live his life, I think it took a lot of guts to write that letter.

So who was the first person to respond to Tegtmeier here on The Falcon's Web site? Aaron Roberts. And what did he say? "Mr. Tegtmeier is certainly good at picking and choosing verses isn't he. Or at least repeating what he heard from his conservative pastor. I wonder if he has ever actually read the Bible?"

Reactionary and shallow? I dunno, you tell me. Regardless of what you call it, I think we just found our third piece of evidence.

As for "surprising and deep engagement from students and professors with perspectives across a spectrum," that wasn't the impression formed by at least one attendee at the Pastor Panel:

http://thefalcononline.com/article.php?id=7316

This letter from Marissa Johnson was published the same week as Tegtmeier's. Roberts' "dangerous monsters" letter appeared the following week. So I guess the "dangerous monsters" are Tegtmeier and Johnson?

Your input is appreciated, but I'm obliged to take it with a grain of salt, given your stated opposition to the Statement on Human Sexuality. I'm hoping to hear from someone who actually supports the Statement and yet has experienced this gracious treatment from Haven that you're talking about.

But at any rate, your recommendation of empathy with Roberts is a good one. I published an underground paper during my SPU days, and boy oh boy, there are some things I put in print that I wish I could take back. So: Aaron, I certainly know what frustration and strain feel like. But please try to remember that you represent Haven all the time. Unfortunately, you don't have the option of being Gracious Aaron when you're conducting meetings and Snarky Fire-Breathing Aaron when you aren't -- at least, you don't have that option if you don't want to give SPU an excuse to dismiss your petition for club status. People talk about "fighting the good fight," but that's just a metaphor.
idealist said:


ChUck,

I will try to keep this brief, for I believe we are wandering away from constructive conversation and continued understanding into the unappealing realm of ceaseless bickering. So. I think this should be my last engagement on this thread.

First, I apologize for sounding arrogant. I was merely pointing out that taking a patronizing tone toward others contributing to this thread is probably unnecessary. That said, I do think I have useful insight and experience.

Second, I believe focusing on one individual and one event can lead to a dangerous and demonizing misrepresentation of a group with a four+ year history, countless participants, and persistent campus engagement.

Roberts responded to criticisms defensively. Should he have? It probably wasn’t in Haven’s best interest. As for the panel, I was not there. Neither were you. However, I have attended several other events, and I do not believe your evidence is reaching or holistic enough to be anything more than finger pointing.

Third, I will refrain from putting words in your mouth. Please do the same for me. I don’t believe I have ever remotely or blatantly stated that I oppose the university’s Statement on Human Sexuality. What I am in disagreement with is the university’s chosen inconsistency with their statement. The statement purports to offer the same dignity and value to all students regardless of their sexuality, recognizing that sexuality is a complicated issue. However, in my opinion, the decision to refuse Haven recognition denies the group credibility and full campus participation contingent on fears surrounding sexuality.

Students and community members should be able to express within Haven and to Haven traditional Biblical values without fearing backlash. And I think they can (especially as both Haven and Roberts mature in this experience). The overwhelming ideology at SPU remains traditional (and sometimes blatantly ignorant), and the needed representation is for nontraditional viewpoints, for they have been silenced and discredited for decades.

Finally, Haven members and those seeking to collaborate and participate with Haven should equally be able to function on campus without also fearing university backlash (this is especially important for faculty and university departments who could feel pressured into silence by the administration’s stance).

The university's decision presents a psychological barrier for both LGBT students on campus and other students who are working through questions of sexuality and spirituality. More than denying Haven a room to meet, the decision makes a statement from the university on the value of certain students and perspectives.

Sorry. Not at brief as I meant to be.
ChUck said:
Well, if you're pulling out, I guess I needn't engage all your claims above, but I will engage one of them.

You said, "I don’t believe I have ever remotely or blatantly stated that I oppose the university’s Statement on Human Sexuality." Allow me to refresh your memory. Check out the following thread:

http://thefalcononline.com/article.php?id=7424

In which you stated:

"So. Why the Statement on Human Sexuality? Again, it persists a culture of guilt that is created, not necessarily innate. Perhaps it is time for SPU to reconsider it. I attended SPU because it's an educational institution. Not because I needed a parental figure to shake its fingers at my lifestyle choices and create false guilt and insecurity."

I rest my case.
ChUck said:
One more attempt at engagement, futile though it might be, given your stated intention to leave the building. You said:

"What I am in disagreement with is the university’s chosen inconsistency with their statement. The statement purports to offer the same dignity and value to all students regardless of their sexuality, recognizing that sexuality is a complicated issue. However, in my opinion, the decision to refuse Haven recognition denies the group credibility and full campus participation contingent on fears surrounding sexuality."

If the Statement has been applied inconsistently, that inconsistency has worked to Haven's benefit rather than its detriment. If I'm wrong, then please identify the leaders and send me a copy of the mission statement for the University-sanctioned Pro-Heterosexual-Fornication (PHF) Club that meets on campus and uses ASSP funds in order to provide a safe place for straight kids to gather and discuss the ways in which their sex lives violate University policy. What's that? No such club?

Well, then, Haven is no more disenfranchised than the nonexistent PHF Club, is it? Rather, over the past four years, Haven's provisional/limbo status has enabled it to hold scores of meetings, special events, etc., all of which have at least in part served the purpose of opposing a University policy and pressuring the University to change it. In the history of SPU, as any other group on campus, officially recognized or not, served a similar purpose for a similar length of time? I sure can't think of any.
concerned_alum said:
Dear Haven leaders and members,
I wholeheartedly support what you're doing. This will come to pass, and the social conservatism that shifts every generation will shift again. You are setting the foundation for ALL students to feel welcome and enouraged at SPU for years to come. The school ought to thank you for the service you're providing. Someday they will. Until then, be encouraged. God is in control.

The opinions represented here do not necessarily represent the views of The Falcon or Seattle Pacific University.

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